when dealing with mormon missionaries who come to the door selling you their faith they have many avenues to which they can go down .... one of the more common ones is an appeal to emotion and blackmail tactic
this is often seen as a statement couple with a passages from the book of mormon and a passage from the bible .. and the conclusion is that of seeking to a testamony of the spirit
at some point in the discussion this statement will be made :
i want to bear you my testamony that i know the church of jesus christ latter day saint is the true church, that Jesus is the christ and joseph smith was a prophet of God, and if you will take the book of moment and pray to God to see if it true as i did .. i recieved a testamony from the holy spirit.
this is the typical response given to the person at the door by a mormon when everything else is shut down ... to keep themselves in a safe zone .. they will come out with this mantralike statement ... which really show the desperation of such organisation
it is really an attempt to save faith in times of trouble .. simalar to the notion .."dispite every i am convicted that my faith in joseph smith is true"
to this above response we have several points to make
the first .... if joseph smith was a true prophet he deffinately would not need you witness this truth .. it would be evident from his own life .. but since there many questionable things in his life that would be hard for a biblical christian to swallow when trying to show him be true
a few example would be false prophecy, his consistent use of occultic related items, his contradictory vison accounts and the truth of his revelation how it came to be --- but for the sake of time we will deal the main issue of prophecy
we have 2 good example from many .. the first is from doctrines and covenants section 84 :vs 1 -5
1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house
here we have an apparent prophecy which shows that the new jerusalem would be built in Missouri .. and that it would be built in the generation of the prophet ... to which it cam and went with no fulfilment and many successors of josophs made commentry on this prophecy .. including the following ... Elder George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, 3/10/1861,Elder George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, l0/23/1864 and the problem facing this prophecy is this ... D & C 84:1 -5, this revelation was given September 22 and 23, 1832
the next prophecy is as follows in D & C, Section 114
1 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.
2 For verily thus saith the Lord, that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric. Amen.
here we find a prophecy of a man who will go on a mission trip in the distant future from the time it was anounced .. the problem is it never happened due to his untimely departure from earth ... this prophecy was given in April 17, 1838, and the man in question died only a few months later in October 25, 1838
many ideal solution have been put forth to try and resolve the issue these present, but nonetheless .. they are failed prophecies .. in the case of the second ... it is obvious this apparent prophecy was hinder by mere limited conditions .. thier god made a prophecy that in the following year this man would be on a mission trip .. theor God could have prevented this death so to fulfil this mission if he is the God but this is not the case .. the prophecy was falsified by mans actions
and shows either joseph was a natural liar and made something up or he said something presumpously in Gods name that had no truth think of deut 18 :18 -22 and of the clauses of knowing if some is not a true prophet "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him" .. joseph fulfills both of them
the second ---- is in the following words "and if you will take the book of moment and pray to God to see if it true as i did .. i recieved a testamony from the holy spirit." ... there 2 points to be made on this ... which are
a) even if by some remote chance the book of mormon is true .. the method of obtaining such knowledge is an incorrect manner why should we "pray to God to see if it true" ... when this is not a matter of praying but researching to discover the truth since a demon can manipulate the prayer issue
for example do you need to pray for guidence to know if robbery is good or bad ... no, this is self evident that it is wrong .. and God has already made it clear robbery is against his standards, like adultery is
You shall not murder. “ You shall not commit adultery.
“ You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
if such points are self evident and are also recorded for our benefit into understanding who God is ... then do we need to pray for wisdom and truth of the matter
i would also point out .. would a mormon pay on whether the satanic bible or quran of muslims is true ?
b) ... the next thing to really consider is this .. "i recieved a testamony from the holy spirit" .. as a christian i already have a testamony but it is subjective in nature and does not make for good witnessing to the truthfulness of the bible or your book .. on this we need to go one deeper
to know if something true we need to test the revelation for consisteny and accuracy
2 question need to be asked
what information out side the revelations can be seen as proving it as true
does one revelation speak favourably of theo ther or contradict it
the fist one ... we have many things supporting the bible .. included every place the bible mentions is a real historical place, like jerusalem, and others
but what of the book of mormon .. no reality to it
Mormon archaeologists over the years have almost unanimously accepted the Book of Mormon as an accurate, historical account of the New World peoples between about 2000 B.C. and A.D. 421. They believe that Smith could translate hieroglyphs, whether "Reformed Egyptian" or ancient American . . . Let me now state uncategorically that as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group.
The bare facts of the matter are that nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon, as claimed by Joseph Smith, is a historical document relating to the history of the early migrants to our hemisphere. (pp. 41 -- 42,46)
such statement as the above are telling and very damning to the mormon story of "the New World peoples between about 2000 B.C. and A.D. 421" ... there is no evidence of such people ever existing at any point, even more no one knows where the new world is locate, but that does not stop the speculation from breathing and accumalating .. but to say the least the book of mormon is nothing more than a work of fiction .. it is a fabricated work of decption
on pages 134 -157 of dr james r white book on mormanism, letters to a mormon elder .. james document 5 real in depth reasons for rejection the book of morman as being anything but true .. the above qoute is found in reason one ... on the inaccuracy of different mormon related historical facts ...
a particular one i think is important to consider is the textual reason in reason 5, but also check reason 2 .. for the closely related false doctrines espoused
to which is the basis of the next point ... how this spirit and book contradict what comes before
if we can give an accurate understanding of the tri personal God .... which is found in this work of james whites ...
The doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one eternal being of God -- indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by what we call three co-equal, co-eternal persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. It is good here to distinguish between the terms being and person. It would be a contradiction to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference
to which i have done considerable work on .. in my articles .. such as my article found here on the subject
now to the misrepresentations and the blatent inconsistencies
first of all Joseph one believed in only one God ..... as seen in many places like
By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them --- And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship ---- Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen doctrines and covenants section 20 :17, 19 and 28
here it would appear that joseph smith taught the the concept of "one God" seen in these words "the only living and true God, ... so while we get this picture that the early period was in line with the bible the later period the book of morman and other writing revel 2 changes which are very fundamental ... the first being in mosiah 15 :1-4 but what is most stricking is this following statement found in many writings like Mormon Doctrine
i will provide a small sample for this comparison
Three separate personages-Father, Son, and Holy Ghost- comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods. (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-77)
the evidence is very clear joseph smiths veiw of Gosd was at one point ... the belief of only one God to this we see a dramatic overide of personal change from the biblical veiw of one God ... to a plurality of Gods ... to which it just gets more bizarre as time go on ... as all mankind can through good works like the father become Gods too
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formlike yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another
and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.' The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64,
statements like this make mormonism a very decieved cult ... and we need to understand such state go against Gods word which is perfect and unchanging .. these words however are subject to change like josephs own beliefs, so too are those of the so called prophets who came after him .. there is no doubt in that
this is often seen as a statement couple with a passages from the book of mormon and a passage from the bible .. and the conclusion is that of seeking to a testamony of the spirit
at some point in the discussion this statement will be made :
i want to bear you my testamony that i know the church of jesus christ latter day saint is the true church, that Jesus is the christ and joseph smith was a prophet of God, and if you will take the book of moment and pray to God to see if it true as i did .. i recieved a testamony from the holy spirit.
this is the typical response given to the person at the door by a mormon when everything else is shut down ... to keep themselves in a safe zone .. they will come out with this mantralike statement ... which really show the desperation of such organisation
it is really an attempt to save faith in times of trouble .. simalar to the notion .."dispite every i am convicted that my faith in joseph smith is true"
to this above response we have several points to make
the first .... if joseph smith was a true prophet he deffinately would not need you witness this truth .. it would be evident from his own life .. but since there many questionable things in his life that would be hard for a biblical christian to swallow when trying to show him be true
a few example would be false prophecy, his consistent use of occultic related items, his contradictory vison accounts and the truth of his revelation how it came to be --- but for the sake of time we will deal the main issue of prophecy
we have 2 good example from many .. the first is from doctrines and covenants section 84 :vs 1 -5
1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house
here we have an apparent prophecy which shows that the new jerusalem would be built in Missouri .. and that it would be built in the generation of the prophet ... to which it cam and went with no fulfilment and many successors of josophs made commentry on this prophecy .. including the following ... Elder George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, 3/10/1861,Elder George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, l0/23/1864 and the problem facing this prophecy is this ... D & C 84:1 -5, this revelation was given September 22 and 23, 1832
the next prophecy is as follows in D & C, Section 114
1 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.
2 For verily thus saith the Lord, that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric. Amen.
here we find a prophecy of a man who will go on a mission trip in the distant future from the time it was anounced .. the problem is it never happened due to his untimely departure from earth ... this prophecy was given in April 17, 1838, and the man in question died only a few months later in October 25, 1838
many ideal solution have been put forth to try and resolve the issue these present, but nonetheless .. they are failed prophecies .. in the case of the second ... it is obvious this apparent prophecy was hinder by mere limited conditions .. thier god made a prophecy that in the following year this man would be on a mission trip .. theor God could have prevented this death so to fulfil this mission if he is the God but this is not the case .. the prophecy was falsified by mans actions
and shows either joseph was a natural liar and made something up or he said something presumpously in Gods name that had no truth think of deut 18 :18 -22 and of the clauses of knowing if some is not a true prophet "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him" .. joseph fulfills both of them
the second ---- is in the following words "and if you will take the book of moment and pray to God to see if it true as i did .. i recieved a testamony from the holy spirit." ... there 2 points to be made on this ... which are
a) even if by some remote chance the book of mormon is true .. the method of obtaining such knowledge is an incorrect manner why should we "pray to God to see if it true" ... when this is not a matter of praying but researching to discover the truth since a demon can manipulate the prayer issue
for example do you need to pray for guidence to know if robbery is good or bad ... no, this is self evident that it is wrong .. and God has already made it clear robbery is against his standards, like adultery is
You shall not murder. “ You shall not commit adultery.
“ You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
if such points are self evident and are also recorded for our benefit into understanding who God is ... then do we need to pray for wisdom and truth of the matter
i would also point out .. would a mormon pay on whether the satanic bible or quran of muslims is true ?
b) ... the next thing to really consider is this .. "i recieved a testamony from the holy spirit" .. as a christian i already have a testamony but it is subjective in nature and does not make for good witnessing to the truthfulness of the bible or your book .. on this we need to go one deeper
to know if something true we need to test the revelation for consisteny and accuracy
2 question need to be asked
what information out side the revelations can be seen as proving it as true
does one revelation speak favourably of theo ther or contradict it
the fist one ... we have many things supporting the bible .. included every place the bible mentions is a real historical place, like jerusalem, and others
but what of the book of mormon .. no reality to it
Mormon archaeologists over the years have almost unanimously accepted the Book of Mormon as an accurate, historical account of the New World peoples between about 2000 B.C. and A.D. 421. They believe that Smith could translate hieroglyphs, whether "Reformed Egyptian" or ancient American . . . Let me now state uncategorically that as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group.
The bare facts of the matter are that nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon, as claimed by Joseph Smith, is a historical document relating to the history of the early migrants to our hemisphere. (pp. 41 -- 42,46)
such statement as the above are telling and very damning to the mormon story of "the New World peoples between about 2000 B.C. and A.D. 421" ... there is no evidence of such people ever existing at any point, even more no one knows where the new world is locate, but that does not stop the speculation from breathing and accumalating .. but to say the least the book of mormon is nothing more than a work of fiction .. it is a fabricated work of decption
on pages 134 -157 of dr james r white book on mormanism, letters to a mormon elder .. james document 5 real in depth reasons for rejection the book of morman as being anything but true .. the above qoute is found in reason one ... on the inaccuracy of different mormon related historical facts ...
a particular one i think is important to consider is the textual reason in reason 5, but also check reason 2 .. for the closely related false doctrines espoused
to which is the basis of the next point ... how this spirit and book contradict what comes before
if we can give an accurate understanding of the tri personal God .... which is found in this work of james whites ...
The doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one eternal being of God -- indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by what we call three co-equal, co-eternal persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. It is good here to distinguish between the terms being and person. It would be a contradiction to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference
to which i have done considerable work on .. in my articles .. such as my article found here on the subject
now to the misrepresentations and the blatent inconsistencies
first of all Joseph one believed in only one God ..... as seen in many places like
By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them --- And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship ---- Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen doctrines and covenants section 20 :17, 19 and 28
here it would appear that joseph smith taught the the concept of "one God" seen in these words "the only living and true God, ... so while we get this picture that the early period was in line with the bible the later period the book of morman and other writing revel 2 changes which are very fundamental ... the first being in mosiah 15 :1-4 but what is most stricking is this following statement found in many writings like Mormon Doctrine
i will provide a small sample for this comparison
Three separate personages-Father, Son, and Holy Ghost- comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods. (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-77)
the evidence is very clear joseph smiths veiw of Gosd was at one point ... the belief of only one God to this we see a dramatic overide of personal change from the biblical veiw of one God ... to a plurality of Gods ... to which it just gets more bizarre as time go on ... as all mankind can through good works like the father become Gods too
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formlike yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another
and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.' The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64,
statements like this make mormonism a very decieved cult ... and we need to understand such state go against Gods word which is perfect and unchanging .. these words however are subject to change like josephs own beliefs, so too are those of the so called prophets who came after him .. there is no doubt in that
