A quick note: I have watch many of Dr browns debates and lectures ... the Jewish and Christian encounters, the two way debate between these two James white and Michael brown with Anthony buzzard and Joe somebody on the trinity and deity of Christ and the debate on homosexuality with harry Knox and in these debates Michael gives exegetical foundations for what he believes but here in this one he uses the scatter gun approach
Here I want focus on the john 6 presentation, more than the other two.
James White's presentation .. gives his exegetical presentation on john six for the reformed faith .... i will link his presentation from alpha and omega ministries, his website .. an article called john ch. 6 in the reformed section of his article section or his presentation from the potters freedom, debating Calvinism called "Jesus teaches the doctrines of grace" (also check my teaching on john 6 on this blog).
Michael Brown's response to James presentation was this:
To get a better feel of the text we need to start back in john 1 and work through to this point to get a more accurate feel of the point at hand, and when we do we see that in ... john 1 :12 "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God", then in john 3 :16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." and in john 3 :36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them". as well we see the same thing in john 4 :14, 4 :23 and 35, and in john 5 :43 -44, 46 -47, then in john 6 35 -36
who are the ones who are given .. who the father now entrusts to the son .. well in the history of the Jews there has been a remnant .. some who after Gods heart .. they are the lowly and contrite of heart
we see this them in such passages as the following ... Malachi 3: 16 -18, Isaiah 57 : 15, Ezekiel 9 :3 -4 Jeremiah 29 : 3 -7 and also Luke 1 :17. This interpretation is confirmed in vs. 45 of john 6, and make much more sense than importing an arbitrary predestination into the passage. John 6 :38 -39 ... the emphasis is clearly on the keeping power of the son of God, we see the same thing in john 10 :27 -29 .. there are two possible ways to understand this
1) all those given to the son will persevere and infallibly be saved until the last day
2) Jesus will do his part in keeping safe those entrusted to him, nothing can snatch them out of his hand .. yet those given can turn away as Judas did .. which read in john 17 : 12
RESPONSE
As much respect as I have for all Dr Brown has done, even to the point of exegeting many texts in other venues in this one his understanding of scripture reveals a very deceptive use of scripture in terms of not actually dealing with Dr James whites exegesis of john 6. Instead like many other Arminian, he loads the six shooter with his texts of ammunition, and fires them hoping for a victory which never avails- all at the same moment never realising that john 6 never gets touched and there is no useful interpretation of the whole context of john 6 :35 -45 and the reformed position has been shown as true in doing so
Before getting to the specifics of Michael's answer I want to address this question "who are the ones who are given, who the father now entrusts to the son?" Well there are a number of points be raised in this area but two will suffices.
(1) the elect is clearly in view as Jesus is demonstrate through the true believer who are drawn and given to the son by the father .. that these Jews and in fact many of the disciple do not have true saving faith .. and hence will fall away from the seen as john 6 progress' .. this is seen in john 8 and 10 as well as john 17.. but on this passage alone Jesus reveals in their stern attempts at wanting something (miracles in this case) they are showing they are not truly seeking him for salvation as they are not the elect.
(2) it is like important to note that the Arminian theology does not and can not answer the question .. for the beliefs that are from this camp Jesus didn't die to truly atone for mans sin but only make it a possibility which helps establish the fact that Michael camp can not definitively answer the question since they don't believe in these words truly "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."
Also consider just what Michael has said in this question, a remnant of something (Israel) can not be defined as a whole since it is portion or a select number hence lending support to limited atonement
Now we can start to deal with the citations given .. at least a few to begin with as there is no need to address them all since I have done in other article on this blog but the one i will start with is john 1 :12 which states:
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
What can we learn from these words, well if we include the next verse we have a good place to begin and it reads,
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God"
The first thing we note is that this adoption (as this is what is being addressed) is a supernatural act, one not of a human origin as in the terms state "born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will" .. so the only real conclusion of such terms is one that begins and ends with LORD GOD ... himself, since every possible human action is rule out of the equation.
The second thing we discover is that this whole chapter is the lens in which one needs to see the whole book through, for if one begins with the wrong understand it will force the rest to be inconsistent .. as just we know from such things like the first verse with J . W's and Islam that they read it incorrectly so to it can happen with all aspects.
Something that may help us to see a good relation is that even though we do receive Christ .. well the verse says it is not our own doing but an act which happen out side our control; and upon John 6, we see this discussion of john one is open up to address it from all sides the divine application, as well as the human application too.
This teaching is so powerful and so clear that all attempts to override its direct implications just full apart under the true exegesis of the text there is no discussion of human "free" will as it does not exist- apart from Jesus all mankind are slaves to sin and can not do anything other what they nature desires.
The next things I want to address are the old testament citations ... since they need to be understood from context
The first one is from Malachi 3 which reads
Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honoured his name. “On the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty, “they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.When reading the small context in light of all that is said and the precious question Michael which included the term remnant .. which is a biblical description of the faithful Jews. But it also speaks heavily of a particular number of people like in Revelations 7- 12,000 from every tribe. Surely that number does not represent all people from a particular tribe but only the ones who are faithful remnant.
And when we consider the last section as this is speaking of Jews alone, it is making a distinction in the creation, and then we need to deal with the fact is speaks of another distinction in the Jewish nation, something Michael hints at but does not realise the full impact of what this position mean and how damaging it is to his theology; even his theology is damaging itself when these statement are made about the specific purpose of the atonement and knowing that the theology does not allow for a true atonement
The second one is from Isaiah 57 which reads
And it will be said: “Build up, build up, prepare the road! Remove the obstacles out of the way of my people.” For this is what the high and exalted One says— he who lives forever, whose name is holy: “I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite. I will not accuse them forever, nor will I always be angry, for then they would faint away because of me— the very people I have created.
I was enraged by their sinful greed; I punished them, and hid my face in anger, yet they kept on in their wilful ways. I have seen their ways, but I will heal them; I will guide them and restore comfort to Israel’s mourners, creating praise on their lips. Peace, peace, to those far and near,” says the Lord. “And I will heal them.”
But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud. “There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”
Now if there was a text which spoke volumes of what Yahweh would do for those whom he truly loved, this one would stand up close to those of the new testament on the elected people. Note that this is about the sins of the people who deserve no forgiveness but yet through the greatness of God's grace, he does just this thing and forgives them
The one thing this text does not address unlike the one in Malachi, is whom it is focusing upon it is just universal in application, not of atonement, but in the spec of the passage. But it maybe just the Jews for their many dishonourable acts such as in exodus 28 and numbers 25 and 31 and many other occasions
The third one is from Ezekiel 9 which reads
Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, “Bring near those who are appointed to execute judgment on the city, each with a weapon in his hand.” And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar. Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.” As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple. Then he said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!” So they went out and began killing throughout the city. While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?” He answered me, “The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see.’ So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done.”Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, “I have done as you commanded.”While this does show great compassion from God, we must note that it is only due to the fact that he is sparing a number of his people, those who detested the ungodliness of Israel at that time- the rest are shown to be ungodly and came to emanate death for their sinfulness.
So far from showing the Arminian view point of everyone will be saved .. this text does nothing but disprove such is the case note these words,
"While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?” He answered me, “The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see.’ So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done.” Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, “I have done as you commanded.”The prophet is pleading for the people as he believes it is way to much, but GOD IS THE JUDGE and his judgements are just and the crimes are fitting but in these verses we see God mercy being revealed in lives of the innocent being kept live, well innocent of this crime but not in of themselves as they are sinners
The final one is Jeremiah 29 which states
These are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the surviving elders of the exiles, and to the priests, the prophets, and all the people, whom Nebuchadnezzar had taken into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon. This was after King Jeconiah and the queen mother, the eunuchs, the officials of Judah and Jerusalem, the craftsmen, and the metal workers had departed from Jerusalem. The letter was sent by the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent to Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. It said: “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce. Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease. But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare. For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are among you deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams that they dream, for it is a lie that they are prophesying to you in my name; I did not send them, declares the Lord.How this passage even relates to anything about salvation in the full sense I cannot begin to fathom, but what is evident in this is that God's people are told not see their captivity in the negative but see the positive in the situation.
Note the decree to make the best of the situation in this passage: families, produce to eat, and other survival methods.The one thing we should not do is read things into the context of passage where there is no warrant to do such things are seen in the ways that Arminians interpret the bible. And since predestination is a clear teaching of this passage as it the case of Romans 8 -9 and Ephesians 1 which remain air tight, unrefuted and they are biblically consistent
