this statement was made by a youtube user who will remain nameless as i do not want to get into personal attacks but just give a critique of his argument to see how well he has done in his exegesis of the reformed position ..
below i have all in one statement .. but i will crique it in segments so that it can be followed with ease
Thanks for the complements. And I appreciate I may have knocked over some sacred cows with my comments. There are many scriptures, like Romans 8, which give rise to the concept of pre-destination. I don't have any trouble admitting that. But there are an equal number indicating the alternative position, of God's grace to all men, not just an arbitrary few. And I realize I am not 'exegeting' the specific verses you mentioned. I'll get to that in (2) 2) I begin reading several verses before 29-30. As I look to see the 'Context' of the teaching, which is critical, I keep going back a verse of two and saying, wait, THAT statement also adds to the depth of the discussion. But for the sake of this process, I'll stop at 8:1 - which begins with 'There is THEREFORE' - an altogether dependent conclusion from the statements that proceeded it. And beginning with 8:1, I see 'walk not after the flesh' a choice. :2 has made me free (3) :4 who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit :5 they that are after the Spirit :6 to be spiritually minded :8 in the flesh :9 you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit :10 if Christi be in you . . . the Spirit is life :13 but if YOU through the Spirit do mortify :14 as many as are led :15 Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba, Father :16 the Spirit bears witness - we ARE the children of God :17 if children heirs (4) Almost all of which indicate active participation, or choice, by the believer. The exception being mention of 'Children', who have no choice in their 'genesis'. And with :28, God clearly 'CALLS' people. God has specific 'callings'.But when I finally get to 29 'For whom he [GOD] did foreknow' the word 'foreknow' becomes the point of contention between the competing dogmas. To 'foreknow' literally means to 'know before'. And without out assumed subtleties, it boils down to Omniscience. (5) What and WHO does God not 'know before'? Can any man or anyone, exist that God did not foreknow them? Does not God know all in their mother's womb? Certainly David claimed God knew him in his mother's womb. And I find that in order to make the 'Predestination' argument fit, proponents must attempt to tweak 'foreknow' to imply some unique, special or intimate knowledge that God does NOT have with those NOT called. And I am trying very hard here to use neutral words, to not be imbalanced.(6) As I stated, with :28 stating "them who are called according to his purpose" I have no trouble accepting 'calling'. Calling STILL requires answer and obedience. Those 'led' must 'follow'. Again free choice rears its head. And as I continue in :29 and even :30, the text does not preclude choice, obedience and free-will. It does lay out a progression of steps. Calling, justification, glorification. I do not see 'exclusivity' dictated by the sequence. Just God's sequential interaction
this is a great example of not being able to accurately handle the text of romans without making many assumptions along the way .. which will be seen .. but lets just see that in due course
as this is not a refutation of the reformed position on the verses at all , it is mere dismissal with no real indepth discussion on the reformed veiw to show how it is wrong ... and in indeed how the reformed view and muslim veiw od a type of predestination is the same .. it is assumed
Thanks for the complements. And I appreciate I may have knocked over some sacred cows with my comments. There are many scriptures, like Romans 8, which give rise to the concept of pre-destination. I don't have any trouble admitting that. But there are an equal number indicating the alternative position, of God's grace to all men, not just an arbitrary few. And I realize I am not 'exegeting' the specific verses you mentioned. I'll get to that in (2)
here we have the introduction being made .. which has a few thing that need to be taken note of ... There are many scriptures, like Romans 8, which give rise to the concept of pre-destination. I don't have any trouble admitting that. But there are an equal number indicating the alternative position, of God's grace to all men, not just an arbitrary few
a -- i assume that the commenter is refering to the doctrine of predestination when he states this "not just an arbitrary few" .. to this we simple make the point that the many selective veses that seem to suggest free will or mans choice in coming to God .. once understood in context do not actually suggest such a position -- it is a basic error to assume something without proving it first ... and is eisegetical in nature
b -- romans 8 is just one of a great many passages that form the doctrine of predestination .. and it not good to say that it is based on only a few ... many doctrines are based on a simalar number of passages and counter support verses, and get the okay by some and dismissed by others .. trinity and justification are just 2 such doctrines
this attack has not knock over sacred cows as you refer to it .. but has actually attacked a biblical truth, one you have just made an assertion of a connection but not proved it, and you have not even refuted it thus far .. lets see how you do in the second segment
I begin reading several verses before 29-30. As I look to see the 'Context' of the teaching, which is critical, I keep going back a verse of two and saying, wait, THAT statement also adds to the depth of the discussion. But for the sake of this process, I'll stop at 8:1 - which begins with 'There is THEREFORE' - an altogether dependent conclusion from the statements that proceeded it. And beginning with 8:1, I see 'walk not after the flesh' a choice. :2 has made me free 4 who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit :5 they that are after the Spirit :6 to be spiritually minded :8 in the flesh
here you state that ... "I begin reading several verses before 29-30. As I look to see the 'Context' of the teaching, which is critical"
while it is vital to think of context to know what the teaching is demonstrated, the fact is this is nothing but a rouse which shows you can not handle vs 29 -30
i will provide an exegesis of these verse later ... since you do not go beyond vs 30, i wont
next you claim this "And beginning with 8:1, I see 'walk not after the flesh' a choice. :2 has made me free" .. seemingly thinking that man has a choice before he is drawn and freed from the power of sin ... but if this is the point then you have missed the mark
because you missed a whole lot out that would and could not show your interpretation to be corerect
note you say "8:1, I see 'walk not after the flesh' a choice .. since this statement make no appearence in 8:1 .. it actually states this "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" ... so by making this suttle chamge you then can claim there is a choice introduced by this verse, when there is none . --- follow by this state ment .. " has made me free" which you made which actually states this "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death" ... so your surposed choice is not even in these 2 verses ..
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
in this passage paul starts out by giving us the reason why christian .. true christian have no fear of the judgement .. it is because .. we have been set free from sin .. before this we like the rest were totally dependant on sin .. it was our master .. and now christ has set us free by taking it on his own body, and bared the judgement in our place .. the freedom we partake in is not own own by what has been granted to us in christ
and the righteous standing we have is based on christs work of atonement ... we owe him our all .. his is our master now
paul does not stop here .. he make a point to which we need to fully understand .... For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ... and here it is ... the unregenerate only seek that which come natural to them sin .. unless something outside them which is divine changes them .. then there is no hope
and paul makes this point at the end of this section " For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God" .. the unregenerate individual in of of himself cannot submit or please God .. the greek word here translated as cannot as it is in john 6 :44 .. refers to innability, as it means no one is able to ... do what paul speaks too .. submit or please God .
9 you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit :10 if Christi be in you . . . the Spirit is life :13 but if YOU through the Spirit do mortify :14 as many as are led :15 Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba, Father :16 the Spirit bears witness - we ARE the children of God :17 if children heirs
here we begin in verse 9 .... to which we need to make a point of ... or ask from verses 7 -8 unto 9 .. is it addressing the same people or a different group of peaople .. context would have us seriously consider the possiblity that peaople in vs 7 -8 is address the unblievers who cannot believe not because theur own choice but because God has not chosen them, and in vs 9 .. he then switches gears and focus' on the regenrate believers we know this by this "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit" .. by dropping the word however it can be made to or force into speaking of the same group .. when it is not
God word deserve more respect .. if there is transition in the passage then do not render it to leave it in the dark .. however is in verse 9 in all good translations then not including the second part of verse 9 .. is dishonest .. so here is verse 9 in full .... "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him .. note the two element here .. a true christian has the spirit, a false one does not ... and here we meet the truth of the passage ... the spirit first has to be in someone .. to regerate them and set them free in christ ... without the spirit one is not of christ
next he goes from verse 10 and jumps to 13 -14 .. to which we need all context to understand its meaning and not rely on partial selectivity
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
here we note that the believers are recipients of a great blessing of eternal life ....
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him
we note here that paul begins this section addressing one group .. and speaks to the former life that was ours .. the sinful life we were known by ... and then says that the flesh results in death and the spirit brings life to those who are in christ
and then paul breifly describes the act of sanctification ... in these words .. " For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God" .. though in our view it is a process that last forever .. which paul refers to led ... to God its an instant thing the moment you are in christ your a son of God .. this is seen in the term "are" and we cry abba father by this precious gift ... our life is not of slavery but of grace .. and our suffering is what brings glory to our lord
Almost all of which indicate active participation, or choice, by the believer. The exception being mention of 'Children', who have no choice in their 'genesis'. And with :28, God clearly 'CALLS' people. God has specific 'callings'.
here we enter into what i class as misunderstands and misdirections ... in these words "Almost all of which indicate active participation, or choice, by the believer" we see a classic example of eisegesis being that something is being read into the passage .. since i feel we are speaking on vs 28 still lets just see what is being discussed ... "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." ... there is not a sign of choice in these words, nor active participation .. since what we are dealing with here is how a believer knows his end result is a certian reality .. and it all comes down to the Lord who never fails on his chosen people .. for example .. "for those who are called according to his purpose" this is discribing an action on Gods part not mans .. an action he under took before we were even born .. he chose a people in christ to redeem
whilest no calvinist would disagree that we make choices in our life as believers .. that is only down to the fact we are no longer salves to sin .. we have christs freedom ... however where we strongly disagree and quite rightly is on when and where and how we make choices .. you believe you made a choice to come to christ .. we do not .. since we were dead in sin, unable to choose God till he made the choice to regenerate us .... and not based on our forseen action, but on his will
and this is the reformed position one you clear do not understand by your above comments and what is still to come
But when I finally get to 29 'For whom he [GOD] did foreknow' the word 'foreknow' becomes the point of contention between the competing dogmas. To 'foreknow' literally means to 'know before'. And without out assumed subtleties, it boils down to Omniscience
What and WHO does God not 'know before'? Can any man or anyone, exist that God did not foreknow them? Does not God know all in their mother's womb? Certainly David claimed God knew him in his mother's womb. And I find that in order to make the 'Predestination' argument fit, proponents must attempt to tweak 'foreknow' to imply some unique, special or intimate knowledge that God does NOT have with those NOT called. And I am trying very hard here to use neutral words, to not be imbalanced
as i have laid out the real exegesis of this text (vs 29 -30) under the next segment .. i do not need to go into the details of it here .. so i point you to that response, how ever there a few points to clear up in this response
a -- What and WHO does God not 'know before'? Can any man or anyone, exist that God did not foreknow them? Does not God know all in their mother's womb? seemingly by your comment you believe that our understanding of forknowing means that God had no knowledge either prior too or during the times of people living .. and that this idea only extents to a group .. this is incorrect ....
we believe fully just as you do that God had knowlegde of all people every where .. hence why he could give prescriptive command for all men to repent ... the real issue that many are blind too is this ... the tem forknow really signifies a relational boundary .. in other words God chose to enter into a covenantal relationship with specific people .. first limited to the jewish nation (12 tribes of israel) then final eternally in and through his son he chose to save a group of people (as seen in john 6 and 10 not every jew was to be in christ .. and the same applies to the gentile
b --- with these words "And I find that in order to make the 'Predestination' argument fit, proponents must attempt to tweak 'foreknow' to imply some unique, special or intimate knowledge that God does NOT have with those NOT called" ... you seem to fit the mould of being ignorant .... for example in john 6, 10 and 17 when Jesus makes a distinction of who are his and who are not in these words "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them" ... sure if jesus own words mean anything that dont mean universalism but specificity in there application
As I stated, with :28 stating "them who are called according to his purpose" I have no trouble accepting 'calling'. Calling STILL requires answer and obedience. Those 'led' must 'follow'. Again free choice rears its head. And as I continue in :29 and even :30, the text does not preclude choice, obedience and free-will. It does lay out a progression of steps. Calling, justification, glorification. I do not see 'exclusivity' dictated by the sequence. Just God's sequential interaction
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. -- romans 8 :28 -30
firstly we note that there is an audience which this is written for .. immediately the romans, but also note it is all the saint of christ-- we gather this from two points .. A ) from romans 8 :12-13 where it states "So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." and B) from this second indication in this very passage in verse 27 "And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God"
so this initial look into this chapter reveals that paul is addressing the believers, not the non believer, unless they are transformed by the work of the spirit .. verse 12 -17 of this chapter
even more so is that in chapter 12:1-3 we have another point which can be used to bring this point out ....I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned"
since this scripture is telling a group of people to not be conformed to the worlds ways of living and thinking but to that of God through a transformation of the heart .. that means that it could not be everyone , but only believers since this happens due to the work of the spirit in a believer
okay moving onto the passage in question
this verse tell us that those (believers) were chosen to be conformed due to a predestined action on Gods part from all eternity, in his council and will God chose to saved a people to glorify himself, we need to define what these terms mean by the biblical text, and not the dictionary
foreknow -- means to forelove .. to enter into a relationship, not based on any action of the man, but solely upon the infinate realities of the what would happen in his son by the cross
predestined --- to act upon God own choice which is in accord to his council and will -- so everything that happen finds it origin in Gods own purpose and his being
so everything works together because God has predetemined it action and its rout of work in history .. and does not sit back and let it happen but actively works in all matter good or bad in his glory
meaning those he chose in christ he called through christ .. by means of his work, the preaching of the gospel, and the work of the holy spirit .. those who he called in the ways that they took.. he justified by the death of christ
Justification .. that God makes man right before him, so man is righteous and just not on account of anything he himself does, but in that which Christ does in his salvific work .. and man can not lose this justification since it is not his own
glorification ... this the end result of a believer who receive the full reward of eternal life .. that happen through sanctification
sanctification is the ongoing work of the spirit to conform us to the image of christ our lord --- which is part n part with the act of renewing the heart of believer .. taking the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh
above is an exegesis of the romans 8 :28 -30 which the person did not even begin to address in his subterfuge .. he just left untouched at this point
