In a debate between Michael brown and harry Knox on "why homosexuality is biblically acceptable"
before we can get into the argument of biblical passages it is important that we understand the most common type of strategy in getting support for what you are doing
Harry Knox comments
perhaps you have come 'cause you care passionately for my mortal soul, perhaps you have come cause you have been singled out because of what you are, perhaps like me you have been denied the right to work because your lesbian or gay, maybe like me you love some one so much you have taken the responsibility of making a family with him or her .. and yet you have not been given the basic protect and protection available to your married neighbours
and your wondering what it is doing to your soul to be aligned with such unkindness and out right violence ... because the stakes are too high our discussion tonight requires 2 things that are often contradictory
a) utmost civility and care for each other in word and deed, b) absolute honesty may God help us confront our own sinful nature and those of others
i have spent most of my adult life begging my mostly christian neighbours to not kill me kindness .. for the most noble of reason a desire to call me to holiness
We may note that this champion of gay rights so far into his 20 minute speech has not presented any real argument which is biblically grounded, and instead has relied on fallacious argumentation to win support of his listeners
He has used emotional argumentation which does not really get us anywhere in life apart from appearing self righteous .. take fore example this line "perhaps you have come 'cause you care passionately for my mortal soul, perhaps you have come cause you have been singled out because of what you are" this does not help us understand the biblical view on the issues at hand, all it does is put the life style of such a person on trial and defence
when it is never the point of such debates ... we need to drop the emotional arguments and really deal with biblical text with honesty
Then he uses another fallacy called poisoning the well ... in these words ... "and your wondering what it is doing to your soul to be aligned with such unkindness and out right violence ... because the stakes are too high"
In this we see that before we can even asses any particular issue ... the atmosphere has emotionally charge and any disagreement will appear as if it is an attack on the person, even if it is biblically founded to the heart of the objections
So far what we have here is emotional blackmail .. which does not provide us with the right angle to asses if a lifestyle is really biblically acceptable or if it condemned as a sinful deed and one that a christian should flee from
to make a simple point .. when dealing with such argumentation bare in mind you are not dealing with a rational, honest presentation no matter how much the person claims it is the fact like in these words ..
"a) utmost civility and care for each other in word and deed, b) absolute honesty may God help us confront our own sinful nature and those of others"
such statement beg the question are you appealing to Christians or the public at large ... since one you want a civil platform which is not biblical when it comes to sin .... what if we turn this around and point to another sin like intergenerational love (paedophilia) and ask if the same argumentation be applied .. would this make it okay for such an act in God eyes ..
"A false balance is an abomination to the Lord, But a just weight is His delight" .. the meaning is that if one is okay for us to accept, then the other that have similar arguments are in equal grounds, but if one is not okay to be seen as right in Gods eyes then so to the other is wrong
just think about what the bible accepts and rejects .. the moral law is binding on all men including harry Knox
harry Knox 2nd argument
those who have sought to punish and oppress me have used the most powerful tool i know .. as a weapon against me
they have perverted the holy bible .. the powerful standard of justice
for even the most marginalised among us .. the very touch stone of grace of reconciliation
my sexual orientation is a gift of God to me .. my perfect peace
* genesis 19 .. speaks to a military strategy of gang rape
this story doesn't speak to loving relationships like ours rather we see in the words recorded something much more sinister is taking place .. men surround lots house and are gagging to rape the 2 strangers .. the context makes this clear
it is one of the old tools of war .. when you feel you are under attack by the enemy force them into an uncomfortable position so they may never come back to town again... they intended to rape them in the public
it is uncanny that there is a second story almost identical in content in judges 19 and 20
only one difference is immediate the place is called gibea
Not being content on poisoning the well or emotional trips, harry now accuse every one who is not like his kind "homosexual" of perverting the holy bible .. what is interesting is that we find a emotional charge being vented in this claim "those who have sought to punish and oppress me have used the most powerful tool i know .. as a weapon against me -- they have perverted the holy bible"
the charge is as if he believes that we have a vendetta against him a person ... which to this we say, no, all we are seeking to do is to show your life style is inconsistent with biblical morality
and such argument as these are tainted by your sinful desires and lusts and the fact you prefer darkness to the light of the gospel
Another thing that needs to be stated on this idea of "they have perverted the holy bible" .. in these words we need more than a baseless claim where is the proof that we who oppose such behaviour that is most assuredly contra to scriptural teaching just as Paul states states in 1 timothy 1 " and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted." .. this no doubt will come later so expect a fuller treatment
But we must also note before we get into the arguments .. that harry has not deal with the positive case on Gods standard for man kins as seen in genesis 2 : 18 -24, which is re-affirmed in Matthew 19 as the standard Christ will alone except .. also note it is heavily used in Paul's writings to the Corinthians and Ephesians , and colossian .. and the picture of the church to Christ is one of a husband and wife .. in a spiritual manner
so if any other form relations or marriage was to be acceptable then this would have been a great place to do so
Now moving onto his understanding of genesis 19
This story doesn't speak to loving relationships like ours rather we see in the words recorded something much more sinister is taking place .. men surround lots house and are gagging to rape the 2 strangers .. the context makes this clear
it is one of the old tools of war .. when you feel you are under attack by the enemy force them into an uncomfortable position so they may never come back to town again... they intended to rape them in the public
The first thing, is that there is a great misapplication of what this term " loving relationships" means .. since selfish, mirror image non -compliant non -compatible relationships .. (i use this word so loosely) can never be assign loving .. just what is the definition of loving, who is it love to , not God it becomes an abomination .. and to even consider such thing as godly is to defile the term
the next thing to note in this is that such a person can make a distinction in the first place ... between what they personally feel is loving and what God condemns as a sinful act .. and that of rape .. as if one can be more Godly than the other .. it is a disgrace when a supposed christian argue in such manners
the final thing is to note that when dealing with a biblical passage that you accurately handle it
here are some of the comments he made "angels show up in Sodom in the form of men and lot does what his Faith requires of him and the rule of community he takes them in and feeds them .. as there eating comes a loud knock .. a banging in the door when lot goes to answer he see all the men of the city around the house
no women .. no surprise as women only in my life time have started going to war .. make no mistake these guys are out for blood bring those guys out here they say so we may know them
Lot can tell the difference
as he know they want to rape them
Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.” 3 Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people ]from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “ Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.” 6 But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. 8 Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand aside.” Furthermore, they said, “This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them.” So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door. 10 But the men reached out their ]hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 They ]struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway.
here is the whole context
The first thing, we must note is the angel hesitation to go with lot .. for they wanted "spend the night in the square"
what does this tell us well quite simple they had the intention of seeing the vile behaviour face on ... but after some encouraging they went with lot
The second thing, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people ]from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “ Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.”
the men made there intention well known even before lot confronted them , their sole intent was to have homoerotic sex with them ... this can be known from 2 thing ..
1 the use of .... "Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.” .. this is an intimate closeness , which rape lacks
2 -- the response lot attempts "Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like" .. these day this would be very unloving for a father to do, but it serves as a sign of what is in view here .. as they reject the offer ... if it was plain rape they would have done it to the daughters and tried to with the men ... but when you are burning with what we connect as love it has preference .. so the fact they wanted to know the men show a preference
the final point to emphasis .... is that lot identifies these men intentions as being wicked .. to which we also see in genesis 13 as well
also note the passage speaks nothing of war .. this is an assumption
another thing which we need to deal with at this point is the view that genesis 19 and judges 19 -20 are identical when they are not ... the only thing that is even remotely similar is the initial underline of visitors and a house to stay and then men come ... however there are differences .. in the first we see men's intention on one thing the visitors .. who are in the form of men, and in the second we see that the men gang rape several people .. including women
Harry's third argument
Sometimes it hard to take the holiness code of Leviticus 18 - 19 seriously .. are you going to give up shrimp and pork, mix different fabric polyester and cotton, play foot ball on a sabbath cause makes you feel good
all these things are on the list of prescriptions that include man not lie with a man as he does with a women
(i understand that Jews had to set them selves apart in varies ways from the other humans) ... but i also understand the rule against copulating with homeless boys taken in as temple prostitutes by the priests
Its perfectly understandable how one such as yourself can not take the holiness code seriously since you have no understanding of what it is about ... the distinction in the law, the different measured restriction on the various types of laws
What is not clear is how one can go from "man not lie with a man as he does with a women" to "rule against copulating with homeless boys taken in as temple prostitutes by the priests" is there any real foundation to such an overthrow of context of it being two adult males and a adult and boy. this is not clear in its premise it's just an assumption
so let elaborate a little further for more clarity
Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘ I am the Lord your God. You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you; you shall not walk in their statutes. You are to perform My judgments and keep My statutes, to live in accord with them; I am the Lord your God. So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the Lord.‘None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness; I am the Lord. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, that is, the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother; you are not to uncover her nakedness. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness. The nakedness of your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether born at home or born outside, their nakedness you shall not uncover. The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for their nakedness is yours. The nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, born to your father, she is your sister, you shall not uncover her nakedness. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is your father’s blood relative. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is your mother’s blood relative. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother; you shall not approach his wife, she is your aunt. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son’s wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness. You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, nor shall you take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; they are blood relatives. It is lewdness. You shall not marry a woman in addition to her sister as a rival while she is alive, to uncover her nakedness. Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her menstrual impurity. You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor’s wife, to be defiled with her. You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the Lord. You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion. ‘Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled. For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants. But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled); so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you. For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people. Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the Lord your God.’” Leviticus 18
These laws are moral laws and we know that by 2 points ... a) the nature of such laws like "None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness; I am the Lord." .. this perfectly describes incest and some forms of paedophilia ... such acts are things that are tied to the 10 commandments .. as they are binding on mankind .. b) we also see in these laws a consequence to each thing .. "those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people." this could be as simple as being cast out and having no place in the covenant or as hard as the penalty of death
but on the other hand the other laws which are
You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together. Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. He shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord to the doorway of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering. The priest shall also make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed, and the sin which he has committed will be forgiven him. When you enter the land and plant all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count their fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden to you; it shall not be eaten. But in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. In the fifth year you are to eat of its fruit, that its yield may increase for you; I am the Lord your God. You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying. You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord. Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness. You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the Lord.Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. You shall rise up before the grayheaded and honor the aged, and you shall revere your God; I am the Lord. When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God. You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the Lord Leviticus 19
Now with these particular laws there is no real established them in them .. they are just what one can class as varied laws, nevertheless it is important to note the difference .. these lawS are classed as purity laws as well .. specific laws give solely to the Jews to set them apart from other nations
For example .. "You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together" .. this is the one that was thrown out .. but have we ever thought about the other things in this cattle and seed ....
it is deal with a purity issue .. and how the Jews had to live in accord to the very strict rule .. this may have something to do with the Leviticus priest offerings .. as the offering had to be pure before God
and since Christ came and rendered this priesthood as obsolete in his one time giving .. there is no real purpose in these laws today
that is not to say there aren't law in the above that may be binding .. like "practise divination or soothsaying" and "You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves" also this is one that is binding "Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot" ... such as the above are vital in obeying .. but the others are not
