in rob bells book love wins he set up a statement which is ment to show how the bible is for all people... yet it seems to be attacking the reformed position on the elect
out of millions of people who haver ever lived - will only a select number make it to a better place and the rest will suffer in their torment and punishment forever - is this acceptable to God ? has God created millions of people over tens of thousand of years - who are going to spend eternity in anguish - can God do this or even allow this and still be a loving God? (love wins, page 2)
Answer
this statement is design in such a way as to cut at the emotions of men, and not deal with the biblical truth of predestination... what is more important that we get emotional in our efforts to understand God or that we submit to the truth of God as he revealed it, do we have to interpret the bible in light of our tradition and feelings, or can we just let the bible communicate it sole truth to the glory of the Lod yahweh
we can already gather an untold presuposition in this book is that God will save everyone, dispite of them selves ... Rob Bell says that ultimately all people will be saved, even those who’ve rejected the claims of Christianity. He argues people will eventually be persuaded by God’s love, postmortem, in the life to come
the above qoute shows just how unbiblical he is in his views
when we consider the next assertion with some consideration it could be classed as n attac on the reformed postion of the elect being predestined
"out of millions of people who haver ever lived - will only a select number make it to a better place and the rest will suffer in their torment and punishment forever"
having the thought of uncontional election and limited atonement as well as predestination of the elect .. states out of his mercy GOD chose to elect a group of individuals for savation not based on anything in them but due to something within his own being "the infinate measure of Gods grace as found in christs atonement"
when we understand the bible in its fullest sense from genesis to revelation we see this the only rel way to understand it
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” ----- Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh ------ So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever -- john 6 :35 -40, 43 -51, 53 -58
At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand -- john 10 :22 -29
in the above passages CHRIST distinguishes between those who his own and those who are not his own we have to let Jesus words stand and be able to speak for themselves -- instead of interpret them in light of own own presuppositions and traditions
for example he states "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" --
this all one statement .. about CHRISTS role as redeemer .. yet there is a group of people who have been choosen in CHRIST by the FATHER -- it does not say all people since that is not will of the father -- we see that the large group were not true believers since they were looking for a cheep thrill of sorts -- he backs this up by point out the real point in john 10 to another group "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" --
here we see that jesus is making a distinction those who do not follow him are not drawn by the father like those who are
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified -- romans 8 :28 -30
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?--- romans 9 :19 -24
here god makes it plain through paul .. he does not submit mans desires, they are in submission to his will .. in romans 9 :19 -24 .... which also quotes
"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" --
so this infact means what it sates that God is the creator and we are his creation .. and how he choose to dispense his grace is in his own calling ..
which we see in jeremiah 18 ... " Then the word of the Lord came to me: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it" --
so here God makes it clear every single life is in his hand and in his control .. and paul takes this theme and applies to every human life being under God control in the above verse from romans 9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will -- In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will -- ephesians 1 :3 -5 and 11
so we have the final scriptural point on this issue which further make this case the truth, which is in Gods word, and no onelines about all being saved when in context they are not addressing all people but all believers who were chosen
the simple fact is that man does not have a right to assume things on Gods part, we have to let God make the final call on his own
there is no universal atonement, just the limited atonement or particular redemption .. as the bible clarifiies .. it is limit as to who is is to save .. the elect, but it is particular as to the nature of it being fully saveable
although this post is not strictly about the five point i have made a useage of it as to assertain the full understand of the biblical revelation in term of Gods purpose as it is written
now we move onto what i class as meaningless questions
is this acceptable to God ? has God created millions of people over tens of thousand of years - who are going to spend eternity in anguish - can God do this or even allow this and still be a loving God?
i say meaningless due to the fact these are question the arminian would ask of us calvinist, and also highlight an important point ... which is that none of them will get any real response that he will accept -- but nevertheless i will just give a breif answer
is this acceptable to God --- in accord to all the bible teach in such verse as the above mentioned ones, the answer is yes ..... if we rephase the question as :
should human traditions be the primary way of accepting what we believe God should say ?
the last question can be answered in the following way --- we will replace loving with just and ask id fair that God should let someone go without showing his just in his dealings?
in other words .. when man sins against God .. will God say i love you and your forgiven .. or are to understand that God is the one in control and will execise his just action in accord to his will, whiles this may not seem loving .. but that is only because we have the wrong picture of loving
when a kid goes and does something wrong, the parent punishes the kid .. even though may be something they dont want to do but the role demands it, just as God demand punishment for breaking the law
like in case of david in 2 samel 11 -12 or the israelite in numbers 25 when they went astray and worshipped idols and defiled them selves with the women
my two questions ..
A ---- if universalism as rob paints it is biblical then why is he arguing like an athiest and saying that God wont punish any one
B ---- does God have to bend to the creature desires or does the creature have to submit to the will of God and accept what is written?
out of millions of people who haver ever lived - will only a select number make it to a better place and the rest will suffer in their torment and punishment forever - is this acceptable to God ? has God created millions of people over tens of thousand of years - who are going to spend eternity in anguish - can God do this or even allow this and still be a loving God? (love wins, page 2)
Answer
this statement is design in such a way as to cut at the emotions of men, and not deal with the biblical truth of predestination... what is more important that we get emotional in our efforts to understand God or that we submit to the truth of God as he revealed it, do we have to interpret the bible in light of our tradition and feelings, or can we just let the bible communicate it sole truth to the glory of the Lod yahweh
we can already gather an untold presuposition in this book is that God will save everyone, dispite of them selves ... Rob Bell says that ultimately all people will be saved, even those who’ve rejected the claims of Christianity. He argues people will eventually be persuaded by God’s love, postmortem, in the life to come
the above qoute shows just how unbiblical he is in his views
when we consider the next assertion with some consideration it could be classed as n attac on the reformed postion of the elect being predestined
"out of millions of people who haver ever lived - will only a select number make it to a better place and the rest will suffer in their torment and punishment forever"
having the thought of uncontional election and limited atonement as well as predestination of the elect .. states out of his mercy GOD chose to elect a group of individuals for savation not based on anything in them but due to something within his own being "the infinate measure of Gods grace as found in christs atonement"
when we understand the bible in its fullest sense from genesis to revelation we see this the only rel way to understand it
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” ----- Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh ------ So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever -- john 6 :35 -40, 43 -51, 53 -58
At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand -- john 10 :22 -29
in the above passages CHRIST distinguishes between those who his own and those who are not his own we have to let Jesus words stand and be able to speak for themselves -- instead of interpret them in light of own own presuppositions and traditions
for example he states "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" --
this all one statement .. about CHRISTS role as redeemer .. yet there is a group of people who have been choosen in CHRIST by the FATHER -- it does not say all people since that is not will of the father -- we see that the large group were not true believers since they were looking for a cheep thrill of sorts -- he backs this up by point out the real point in john 10 to another group "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" --
here we see that jesus is making a distinction those who do not follow him are not drawn by the father like those who are
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified -- romans 8 :28 -30
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?--- romans 9 :19 -24
here god makes it plain through paul .. he does not submit mans desires, they are in submission to his will .. in romans 9 :19 -24 .... which also quotes
"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" --
so this infact means what it sates that God is the creator and we are his creation .. and how he choose to dispense his grace is in his own calling ..
which we see in jeremiah 18 ... " Then the word of the Lord came to me: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it" --
so here God makes it clear every single life is in his hand and in his control .. and paul takes this theme and applies to every human life being under God control in the above verse from romans 9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will -- In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will -- ephesians 1 :3 -5 and 11
so we have the final scriptural point on this issue which further make this case the truth, which is in Gods word, and no onelines about all being saved when in context they are not addressing all people but all believers who were chosen
the simple fact is that man does not have a right to assume things on Gods part, we have to let God make the final call on his own
there is no universal atonement, just the limited atonement or particular redemption .. as the bible clarifiies .. it is limit as to who is is to save .. the elect, but it is particular as to the nature of it being fully saveable
although this post is not strictly about the five point i have made a useage of it as to assertain the full understand of the biblical revelation in term of Gods purpose as it is written
now we move onto what i class as meaningless questions
is this acceptable to God ? has God created millions of people over tens of thousand of years - who are going to spend eternity in anguish - can God do this or even allow this and still be a loving God?
i say meaningless due to the fact these are question the arminian would ask of us calvinist, and also highlight an important point ... which is that none of them will get any real response that he will accept -- but nevertheless i will just give a breif answer
is this acceptable to God --- in accord to all the bible teach in such verse as the above mentioned ones, the answer is yes ..... if we rephase the question as :
should human traditions be the primary way of accepting what we believe God should say ?
the last question can be answered in the following way --- we will replace loving with just and ask id fair that God should let someone go without showing his just in his dealings?
in other words .. when man sins against God .. will God say i love you and your forgiven .. or are to understand that God is the one in control and will execise his just action in accord to his will, whiles this may not seem loving .. but that is only because we have the wrong picture of loving
when a kid goes and does something wrong, the parent punishes the kid .. even though may be something they dont want to do but the role demands it, just as God demand punishment for breaking the law
like in case of david in 2 samel 11 -12 or the israelite in numbers 25 when they went astray and worshipped idols and defiled them selves with the women
my two questions ..
A ---- if universalism as rob paints it is biblical then why is he arguing like an athiest and saying that God wont punish any one
B ---- does God have to bend to the creature desires or does the creature have to submit to the will of God and accept what is written?
