In a desperate attempt to over throw the biblical teachings on how God created mankind; we have two lines of evidence from the bible ...
As is seen in the presentation matthew vines gives .. we see that he does not only content with one to the exclusion of the other .. but they both have major roles in his argument:
Does this reasoning find itself support in Romans or are we seeing the most horrific use of eisegesis; well lets see what we have the first passage:
God righteous judgement is being revealed against all forms of ungodliness .... and all so against those who perpetrate them. This is the first vital point ... it is this wickedness and vile live which course men and women to suppress the truth of God. In other words, it is men who do this in accord to their evil hearts.
Paul makes this point by clarifying the issue,"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made," it is not the matter of there could be something; it is plainly seen that all things have order due the fact they were placed in the order we find them .. and done so by a being who has the power to do so
and paul make a point "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse" .. here paul further establishes his point, not only is God seen through the creation .. a reflection of his power .. but that he has personally revealed himself to select people to convey his message ... and paul then make it clear "that people are without excuse" .. no justification for their disbelief ...
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened .. this is an interesting point .... what does it mean to know God ... well in the same respect they had knowledge which they suppressed due to their sinful natures .. and they were then rejecting God by having their hearts harden
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles .. here is the first point of idolatry ...
These people downplayed the creator - creation relationship ... and turned it on its head .. through their self inflated egos; they were clearly depicting their foolishness and serve that which had no power .. idols
this is the transitional point in the passages ... and always needs to be seen .. in context .. but never is by the "anti biblical, anti God .. but self centred person" or homosexual
and here i will speak to it
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another
this can not get any clearer .. due to the above idolatry .. and blurring of God revealed truth of who he is -- the creator, and what we are his creation .... God does this " gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity" .. sinful desires ... this fits all categories ... and "sexual impurity" ... this has a wide range of implications .. from bestiality, improper sexual exploits like homosexuality, rape, and many things
the next point to reflect is "degrading of their bodies with one another" .. what on Gods green earth can this refer to .. well simple .. the above sexual impurities fits in , and more focus is what is to come in the next argument,
It says, "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen." The wording is very easy to follow and needs no in depth explanation .. but one thing can be said is that .. if God is the creator and he is and we are his creation, he must have something like a moral and living code for his creature to abide .. not laws but a deeper point of reference .. and it can be found in genesis 2 man and wife
Mankind's lusts became the downfall! No longer was there unity through Gods covenant blessing .. marriage; there was disunity and disfunction in that "Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another." These things are not Godly; they are against him
the interesting thing in this section is "and received in themselves the due penalty for their error" .. a reminder of this sinful rebellious act .. they were put under a penalty .. this penalty is hard to know .. maybe they're passions become their undoing, something happens to them due to this sinful way ?
and in like manner ... God reveals another interesting fact
This is the very angle paul gets to .. all the above action man makes leads too these things being seen as that of their lives. Pay special attention to these words, "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done." This can refer to what come before, the exchange of creator - creation worship, and natural relations and unnatural relations; but also we can look ahead in the context to the list of vices in men and note "haters of God," these things are due to being haters and not lovers of God.
Also interesting is that of the end result of others being equally yoked in these actions, "Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practise such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practise them" ... this is something which infects many not a few
A -- the heterosexual union in marriage as seen in genesis 2 :18 -24, Matthew 19 : 1 -12, 1 Corinthians 7 :1 -11, Ephesians 5 :22 -33, colossians 3 :18 -25 and 1 peter 3 : 1-7On the basis of these two principals we can make a case or a refutation of arguments made in favour of homosexuality being a biblical concept as it either comes from 1 of two places; a distortion of text, or a emotional appeal to the persons life
B -- the biblical case against such sinful acts as found in the law as the back ground, then with paul writings on it .. Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6 :9 -11, 1 timothy 1 : 3 -11 and Jude 1
As is seen in the presentation matthew vines gives .. we see that he does not only content with one to the exclusion of the other .. but they both have major roles in his argument:
Matthew vines view of Romans 1 :18 -32 (a special look at vs 26 -27)
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.(Romans 1)
The anti biblical, anti God .. but self centred person will go to this text and say .. since it says " natural relations" .. this mean the people once were in natural relations and exchanged them for what is classed as unnatural ones .. but can not mean that those who have been inclined to manner that is unnatural
in other word they want to posit that unnatural relations can be Godly if they are taken in light of the fact they were not handed over, but was inclined to this disposition
even to the point of walking through the text and giving a n interpretation that gives honour to man and not God
Does this reasoning find itself support in Romans or are we seeing the most horrific use of eisegesis; well lets see what we have the first passage:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptilesIn this section we are given the first portion of the argument; what do we learn:
God righteous judgement is being revealed against all forms of ungodliness .... and all so against those who perpetrate them. This is the first vital point ... it is this wickedness and vile live which course men and women to suppress the truth of God. In other words, it is men who do this in accord to their evil hearts.
Paul makes this point by clarifying the issue,"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made," it is not the matter of there could be something; it is plainly seen that all things have order due the fact they were placed in the order we find them .. and done so by a being who has the power to do so
and paul make a point "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse" .. here paul further establishes his point, not only is God seen through the creation .. a reflection of his power .. but that he has personally revealed himself to select people to convey his message ... and paul then make it clear "that people are without excuse" .. no justification for their disbelief ...
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened .. this is an interesting point .... what does it mean to know God ... well in the same respect they had knowledge which they suppressed due to their sinful natures .. and they were then rejecting God by having their hearts harden
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles .. here is the first point of idolatry ...
These people downplayed the creator - creation relationship ... and turned it on its head .. through their self inflated egos; they were clearly depicting their foolishness and serve that which had no power .. idols
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen
this is the transitional point in the passages ... and always needs to be seen .. in context .. but never is by the "anti biblical, anti God .. but self centred person" or homosexual
and here i will speak to it
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another
this can not get any clearer .. due to the above idolatry .. and blurring of God revealed truth of who he is -- the creator, and what we are his creation .... God does this " gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity" .. sinful desires ... this fits all categories ... and "sexual impurity" ... this has a wide range of implications .. from bestiality, improper sexual exploits like homosexuality, rape, and many things
the next point to reflect is "degrading of their bodies with one another" .. what on Gods green earth can this refer to .. well simple .. the above sexual impurities fits in , and more focus is what is to come in the next argument,
It says, "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen." The wording is very easy to follow and needs no in depth explanation .. but one thing can be said is that .. if God is the creator and he is and we are his creation, he must have something like a moral and living code for his creature to abide .. not laws but a deeper point of reference .. and it can be found in genesis 2 man and wife
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their errorNote the wording, "Because of this" .. because of what exactly! Well we only need to look to verse 25; that man "exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator," and from this we see the natural order of things became contaminated through this idolatry; therefore the result was that the manner of Gods work in man and women union .. the blessed covenant become contaminated too.
Mankind's lusts became the downfall! No longer was there unity through Gods covenant blessing .. marriage; there was disunity and disfunction in that "Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another." These things are not Godly; they are against him
the interesting thing in this section is "and received in themselves the due penalty for their error" .. a reminder of this sinful rebellious act .. they were put under a penalty .. this penalty is hard to know .. maybe they're passions become their undoing, something happens to them due to this sinful way ?
and in like manner ... God reveals another interesting fact
"And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practise such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practise them"
This is the very angle paul gets to .. all the above action man makes leads too these things being seen as that of their lives. Pay special attention to these words, "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done." This can refer to what come before, the exchange of creator - creation worship, and natural relations and unnatural relations; but also we can look ahead in the context to the list of vices in men and note "haters of God," these things are due to being haters and not lovers of God.
Also interesting is that of the end result of others being equally yoked in these actions, "Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practise such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practise them" ... this is something which infects many not a few
